AQSh Davlat kotibining Janubiy va Markaziy Osiyo masalalari bo’yicha muovini Robert Bleyk (Robert Blake) "Amerika Ovozi"ga bergan maxsus intervyusida deydiki, Obama ma’muriyati mintaqaga nisbatan aniq maqsad va strategiyaga ega va bugungi siyosatni shubha ostiga olayotganlar haqiqatga ko’z yumayotgan bo’lishi mumkin. (Look below for English transcript, original audio on right column)
Janob Bleyk bilan Davlat departamentida suhbatlashdik.
Navbahor Imamova: Qirg’izistonda mash’um voqealardan bir yil o’tdi. Milliy va xalqaro komissiyalar fojia yuzasidan tekshiruvlar olib bordi. Xalqaro hamjamiyat, jumladan, AQSh adolat ta’minlansin deb kelmoqda. Lekin undan darak yo’q. Har ikki komissiya hisoboti Bishkekda na ma’muriyat va na parlament tomonidan yaxshi kutib olindi. Siz bugungi vaziyatni qanday baholaysiz?
Robert Bleyk: Menimcha, Qirg’iziston hukumatining xalqaro komissiya tekshiruviga ruxsat bergani va xulosalarni keng ommaga oshkor etib, uning ochiq muhokama qilinishiga yo’l bergani tahsinga sazovor. Bu (regionda) g’ayritabiiy bir narsa, shunday emasmi, ayniqsa agar bu hujjatda hukumat tanqid qilinayotgan bo’lsa. Lekin, siz aytgandek, javobgarlarni sudga tortish bobida hali ko’p ishlar qilinishi kerak. Sudlanganlarning aksariyati o’zbeklar, vaholanki, eng ko'p jabr ko’rganlar aslida ular. Adolat ta’minlanishi shart. Biz buni Qirg’iziston hukumatiga aytib kelayapmiz.
Navbahor Imamova: Janob Bleyk, o’z xalqi ishonchini qozona olmayotgan, adolat ta’minlay olmayotgan hukumatni qo'llab-quvvatlash qiyin emasmi? Bishkekdagi rahbarlar janubdagi vaziyatni nazorat qila olmayotgani ham sir emas-ku axir. Etnik nizolar hamon davom etmoqda.
Robert Bleyk: Qirg’iziston murakkab bir davrni boshdan kechirmoqda. Bir yil oldin bu hukumat jar yoqasida turgan edi. Davlat parchalanib ketishi mumkin degan xavotir bor edi. Shundan beri ko’p narsaga erishildi. Bugun bu davlat Markaziy Osiyoda birinchi bo’lib demorkatik parlament boshqaruv tizimiga ega. Hukumat fojia va tekshiruv xulosalarini ochiq muhokama qilmoqda. Prezident Roza Otunbayeva O’shga borib, muammolarni tan oldi. Bular jiddiy qadamlar, lekin aytganimdek, hali qilinadigan ishlar talay.
Navbahor Imamova: Demak, Amerika va Qirg’iziston rasmiylari bu masalani ochiq-oydin muhokama qilmoqda, siz o’z xavotir va e'tirozingizni ochiq bildirayapsiz?
Robert Bleyk: Ha, shunday.
Navbahor Imamova: Markaziy Osiyodagi har bir davlat bilan yillik maslahatni yo’lga qo’yganingizga mana ikki yil bo’ldi. Siz bu muzokaralarni faxr bilan tilga olasiz, hukumatlar bilan ketayotgan muloqotni yuqori baholaysiz. Lekin bugungacha bu muzokaralar nima foyda berdi? Mamlakatlarning har biriga alohida qaraydigan bo’lsak, qayerda nima samaraga erishdingiz?
Robert Bleyk: Eng katta muvaffaqiyat bu - bugungi ishonch, bir-birimizga nisbatan va aloqalarga nisbatan. Muntazam muloqotdamiz. Buning natijasida, masalan, barcha davlatlar Afg’onistondagi harakatlarimizni qo'llab-quvvatlab, biz bilan hamkorlikni oshirmoqda. Shimoliy Ta’minot Tizimidan tortib, o’zlari alohida yordam ko’rsatmoqda. O’zbekiston elektr toki berayapti, Qozog’iston esa ta’lim va yoshlar malakasini oshirishda yordamlashayapti. Qolaversa, biz inson huquqlaridek nozik masala yuzasidan samimiy fikr almashmoqdamiz. Qirg’iziston Tashqi ishlar vaziri Ruslan Kazakbayev o’tgan hafta Vashingtonda bo’lganida, nohukumat tashkilotlar, fuqaro jamiyati a’zolari bilan bir davrada o’tirib gaplashdik. Bu ijobiy hol.
Navbahor Imamova: Lekin aloqalarni baribir Afg’oniston belgilamoqda, ayniqsa, Amerika-O’zbekiston orasidagi hamkorlikni… Yana qanday omillar bor?
Robert Bleyk: Afg’oniston hozirda, shubhasiz, AQSh tashqi siyosati markazida turgan masala. Shunday ekan, albatta ko’p narsa unga bog’liq. Lekin butun hamkorlik shundan iborat emas. Qirg’izistonda demokratik taraqqiyot bobida katta yutuqlar bor. Shu sabab ham bu davlat o’tgan yildan beri murakkab sinovlarga bardosh bera olayapti. Qozog’iston Yevropada Xavfsizlik va Hamkorlik Tashkilotiga raislik qildi. 11 yilda ilk bor Ostonada bu tashkilot o’z sammitini o’tkazdi. Qozog’iston uchun bu katta yutuq.
Navbahor Imamova: Ammo Qozog’istonda o’tgan prezident saylovlarini demokratik yutuq deya olmaymiz...
Robert Bleyk: Demokratiya tomon ildamroq qadam tashlashsa, yaxshi bo’lar edi. Lekin Nursulton Nazarboyev xalq orasida katta nufuzga ega ekanini ham unutmaslik kerak. Haqiqiy sinov, nazarimda, kelasi yil bo’ladi, parlament saylovlarida. Biz hamda Yevropada Xavfsizlik va Hamkorlik Tashkiloti uni kuzatamiz va yordam beramiz.
Navbahor Imamova: O’zbekistonda bugun vaziyatni kuzatadigan biror xalqaro huquq tashkiloti qolmadi. Mana, “Human Rights Watch” butunlay chiqarib yuborildi. Karimov ma’muriyati bilan bu haqda gaplashayapsizmi?
Robert Bleyk: Albatta, ular bilan bu masala yuzasidan ko’p gaplashdik va gaplashayapmiz. Bu tashkilot vakili Stiv Sverdlovga viza bering, “Human Rights Watch”ning vakolatxonasi ochiq tursin deya undadik. Afsus, sud boshqacha qaror qildi. Lekin bu - biz endi O’zbekiston hukumati bilan aloqalarni uzib qo’yamiz degani emas. Muloqot tufayli taniqli muxolifatchi Yusuf Juma qamoqdan ozod etildi.
Navbahor Imamova: Obama ma’muriyatining Markaziy Osiyoga nisbatan tutayotgan yo’li Vashingtonda keskin tanqidlarga sabab bo’lmoqda. Masalan, Jons Xopkins Universietetidan nufuzli tahlilchi Fred Starr yoki sizning sobiq safdoshingiz Evan Feigenbaum (Davlat kotibining Markaziy Osiyo bo’yicha sobiq muovini) nazarida siz faqat dialog bilan cheklanayapsiz, qo’lingizda aniq strategiya, uzoq muddatni ko’zlovchi reja yo’q. Mintaqadagi mutaxassislar orasida ham bu fikr keng tarqalgan. Bunga nima deysiz?
Robert Bleyk: Men bu fikrga umuman qo’shilmagan bo’lardim. Markaziy Osiyoda uzoq muddatni ko’zlab ish ko’rayapmiz, shu bois ham mintaqani Afg’oniston va Janubiy Osiyo bilan bog’lashga urinayapmiz. Mintaqaga e’tibor katta. Afg’on prezidenti Hamid Karzay Pokistonga borib, savdo yo’llari to’g’risida kelishib oldi. Bu yo’llar Markaziy Osiyogacha yetadi. Bu nazarimda juda muhim qadam… Turkmaniston, Afg’oniston, Pokiston va Hindiston orasida gaz quvurini ishga tushirish haqida gaplashayapmiz. Energetika sohasida yana qator loyihalar bor. Bular hammasi uzoq muddatni ko’zlaydi.
Navbahor Imamova: Amerika Afg’onistonni tark etgach nima bo’ladi degan savol ko’p quloqqa chalinadi. Qurolli kuchlar afg’on zaminini tark etgach, AQSh mintaqada nima bilan mashg’ul bo’ladi? Afg’onistonda vaziyat yana izdan chiqishi, bu mintaqa tinchligiga bugungidan ham ko’proq raxna solishi mumkin degan xavotirlar yangramoqda. Markaziy Osiyo ahlini “biz shu yerdamiz” deb qanday ishontirasiz?
Robert Bleyk: 2014 yilgacha ko’p narsa o’zgarishi mumkin, shuning uchun biror kafolat bermoqchi emasman. Lekin Afg’oniston tinchligi va farovonligi yo’lida qo’ldan kelgan barcha ishni qilishga bel bog’laganmiz va bu niyatda qat’iymiz. Xavfsizlikni mahalliy kuchlar ta’minlay olsin deymiz. Mamlakat iqtisodiy jihatdan taraqqiy etishi uchun hissa qo’shishda davom etamiz.
Navbahor Imamova: Markaziy Osiyo davlatlarini ham Afg’onistonga sarmoya kiriting deya undayapsiz, shundaymi?
Robert Bleyk: Ha, shunday, lekin ularning o’zlari ham yordamga hozir. Masalan, O’zbekiston va Turkmaniston energetika sohasida ko’maklashayapti.
Navbahor Imamova: Ammo AQSh chiqib ketgach, Afg’onistonda vaziyat yana izdan chiqadi, Vashington ishni oxiriga yetkazmay ketishga tayyorlanmoqda degan xavotirlar ham bor.
Robert Bleyk: Menimcha, davlatlar u qadar xavotirda emas. Biz ular bilan gaplashganimizda, harbiy harakatlar va maqsadlar haqida yetarlicha ma’lumot berayapmiz. Xalqaro koalitsiya faoliyati haqida ular ancha tasavvurga ega. Tolibon bilan murosa, Afg’onistonda siyosiy barqarorlikka erishish yo’llari haqida ular bilan ham maslahatlashayapmiz.
Navbahor Imamova: Qirg’iziston, Turkmaniston va O’zbekistonga yangi elchilar tayinlandi. Qozog’istonda ham AQShning yangi elchisi kutilmoqda. Ularning asosiy vazifasi bizga ma’lum: AQSh hukumati va xalqi manfaatlari uchun xizmat qilish. Lekin ular Markaziy Osiyoga alohida bir da’vat va takliflar bilan ham ketayapti, shunday emasmi?
Robert Bleyk: Elchilarimiz orqali shuni bayon etayapmizki, Markaziy Osiyo va u yerdagi har bir davlat AQSh uchun strategik ahamiyatga ega va bu oshib bormoqda. Biz jamiki sohalarda aloqalarni rivojlantirishni, yillik maslahat kengashlarida ko’tarilgan mavzular (huquq va demokratiya, iqtisodiy-siyosiy hamkorlik) ustida ishlashni istaymiz. Nafaqat xavfsizlik, balki ilm-fan, savdo va tijorat, energetik mustaqillikka erishish va inson huquqlari bilan bog’liq ahvolni yaxshilashda yordamga tayyormiz. Buni o’z vazifamiz deb bilamiz. Yangi elchilarimiz – kuchli, iqtidorli diplomatlar. Ular bu maqsadlar yo’lida sidqidildan ishlashga hozir.
Navbahor Imamova: Regiondagi mahalliy tillarni ham bilishadi… Eshitdik ularning qanday gapirishini.
Robert Bleyk: Shunaqa!
Navbahor Imamova: Suhbat uchun katta rahmat!
Robert Bleyk: Har doimgidek, juda mamnun bo’ldim.
Intervyuni ingliz tilida mana bu yerda o'qishingiz, tinglab tomosha qilishingiz mumkin:
Interview by Assistant Secretary Robert O. Blake, Jr., Bureau of South and Central Asia Affairs, with Navbahor Imamova, VOA Uzbek Service, Washington, DC June 13, 2011
QUESTION: It’s an honor to talk to you always.
ASSISTANT SECRETARY BLAKE: Thank you. It’s a pleasure being back.
QUESTION: It’s been a year since those tragic events in Kyrgyzstan, both national and international commissions have investigated, but we don’t really see justice served. The international community, including the United States has been calling for it but we don’t see much progress. The reports by both commissions have not been welcomed in Bishkek, both by the administration and by the parliament. How do you see the situation?
ASSISTANT SECRETARY BLAKE: I think you have to give the government of Kyrgyzstan a lot of credit. First, for allowing the international commission of inquiry to conduct an investigation. And then to publish its findings and announce them inside Kyrgyzstan. That’s actually quite unusual, particularly when a report is criticizing a sitting government. So in fact I think they have done quite a lot already, just by allowing that to happen.
But as you say, a great deal still needs to be done with respect to the actual trials. Most of those who have gone on trial so far have been ethnic Uzbeks, even though Uzbeks were obviously the principal victims of the violence that took place last June. There needs to be greater balance, and also there needs to be greater respect shown for due process. We’ve spoken about that with our friends in the Kyrgyz government.
QUESTION: You’ve been supportive of Otunbayeva’s administration, but Ambassador Blake, isn’t it hard to support the administration which has been struggling to win the trust of its own people? Especially when it’s failing to ensure justice in the eyes of the ordinary citizens. Also you can’t deny the fact that Bishkek doesn’t really have much control over the situation in the south.
ASSISTANT SECRETARY BLAKE: Again, they face a very difficult situation. Things have improved a lot since June of last year when there was great concern about whether the country would even hold together. Now they have an elected parliamentary democracy, the first ever in Central Asia. They’ve allowed this investigation to take place and the findings to be published. They’ve endorsed the findings. And President Otunbayeva herself went down to Osh late last week to commemorate the violence and to say more needs to be done. That’s an important first step. But as I said, still more needs to be done, and we should recognize that many ethnic Kyrgyz in fact don’t want to see much more. So when you look at it from that perspective, they’ve actually done quite a lot, but obviously they themselves recognize that more needs to be done.
QUESTION: So you would say there are honest discussions between Washington and Bishkek in terms of the ethnic tensions in the south, in terms of governance in Kyrgyzstan as it is?
ASSISTANT SECRETARY BLAKE: We would.
QUESTION: Ambassador Blake, it’s been two years since you launched Annual Bilateral Consultations [ABCs] with each country in Central Asia. We know that this administration is very proud of these meetings that you have been holding with the leaders in the region. What have you achieved so far? What have they produced so far? Can you point to one thing in each country and call it progress today?
ASSISTANT SECRETARY BLAKE: I’d say the most important thing we’ve achieved is just to build trust and confidence with each of these countries and to really expand the level and frequency of our engagement with each of these countries. That has produced real dividends for our relations. I would say one of the most important dividends has been the increased support of all of these countries for international efforts in Afghanistan. Many of these countries are supporting in different ways the Northern Distribution Network. They’re also providing their own kinds of support bilaterally in terms of provision of electricity, for example. Kazakhstan is providing a lot of training for young Afghans and so forth. So I think there’s been quite a lot of very important progress in that respect.
We also have an increasingly candid and straightforward dialogue on sensitive issues like human rights, and that’s a very welcome sign.
Just last week we had our first Kyrgyz ABCs. The Foreign Minister and I met with a group of non-governmental organization leaders here. I think that reflected a very welcome openness to discuss all of these sensitive issues.
So those are the kinds of things that I would point to in saying that it has helped a lot to improve our relations.
QUESTION: But the observation is that as if Afghanistan is really it for the relationship right now, especially with countries like Uzbekistan.
ASSISTANT SECRETARY BLAKE: Afghanistan certainly is very important right now. It’s the most important foreign policy issue that we have in the United States so of course we’re going to focus on that. But I’d say it’s much more than that. We’ve devoted an exceptional amount of time and energy and resources to supporting the development of democracy in Kyrgyzstan. There’s been a lot of progress. It’s the first freely elected parliamentary democracy in Central Asia, and it has given Kyrgyzstan a certain suppleness to deal with the many challenges that it has been facing over the last year.
Kazakhstan, of course, had a very successful OSCE chairmanship and hosted the first summit in 11 years, so there’s been a lot of progress in that area.
QUESTION: But the elections in Kazakhstan were not necessarily democratic, were they?
ASSISTANT SECRETARY BLAKE: There could have been better progress on that. No one questions the fact that President Nazarbayev has extraordinary popularity inside Kazakhstan. One thing there, the real test is going to be next year when these very important parliamentary elections take place in Kazakhstan. So that’s what we and the OSCE and hopefully our Kazakh friends are also going to be preparing for with great diligence.
QUESTION: In Uzbekistan we have seen more setbacks actually. As you know, Human Rights Watch is now officially closed in Uzbekistan. Have you talked to the Uzbek government about this? Right now you don’t have any international monitoring organizations in terms of monitoring the situation of human rights.
ASSISTANT SECRETARY BLAKE: We have talked to the Uzbek government about this. We spent a great deal of time supporting first getting a visa for Steve Swerdlow who was going to be the new office director there. Then we have since supported the office remaining open. We regret the decision by the Court to close down that office, but that doesn’t mean we’re going to stop working with the Uzbeks. The Uzbeks are very important partners for us in a number of different areas including in human rights. There has been other progress that I can point to like the release of Yusef Juma who was a well-known dissident, so there has been some progress as well.
QUESTION: You have some harsh critics here in Washington, analysts like Dr. Fred Starr at Johns Hopkins University; your former colleague Evan Feigenbaum who is now with the Council on Foreign Relations who say that while you have an ongoing dialogue, you don’t seem to have a policy, a long-term vision. How do you respond to that?
ASSISTANT SECRETARY BLAKE: I wouldn’t say that at all. I think our long-term vision is that we have put Central Asia at the forefront of what we’re trying to accomplish in this whole region and our vision is to try to integrate Central Asia with Afghanistan and then more broadly, with the countries of South Asia.
We just had a very very important visit by President Karzai to Pakistan in which they agreed to operationalize the Afghanistan-Pakistan Transit Trade Agreement and to extend it to the countries of Central Asia. That is a very important step forward. We’ve also seen quite important progress between India and Pakistan in their bilateral relations including on this very important issue of improving commerce between India and Pakistan for which there is great scope for expansion.
There actually is some important progress. We’re also undertaking very important steps to try to assist the Turkmenistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan-India gas pipeline. We’re also looking closely at what we might be able to do to support things like the CASA-1000 energy transmission line. So there’s quite a lot going on. But we do have a long-term vision for the region that really places Central Asia in the forefront of efforts to stabilize and to integrate this region.
QUESTION: What happens in the region once U.S. forces leave Afghanistan, is a big question. A lot of people are wondering and they express concerns about well, how long is the U.S. going to be here? What will the U.S. do once the military leaves? How committed are you in the region when it comes to Afghanistan?
ASSISTANT SECRETARY BLAKE: We have a long-term commitment to the region including especially to Afghanistan. I don’t want to try to speculate about what’s going to happen after the transition at the end of 2014. That’s still a very long way off, but we’re certainly very committed to ensuring a successful transition in which the Afghan National Security Forces are trained up so they can take responsibility for their own security. And during which we help to build up the Afghan economy so that they increasingly can take on a lot of responsibility economically for their future.
I think a lot of progress is being made, but certainly a lot of work needs to be done.
QUESTION: So you are encouraging Central Asian countries to invest in Afghanistan?
ASSISTANT SECRETARY BLAKE: Certainly. And I don’t think they need much encouragement. They certainly have an important interest in the stabilization of Afghanistan and that’s why we see countries like Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan providing a lot of electricity to Afghanistan.
QUESTION: But you also know that they all worry that things may get worse once you leave, right?
ASSISTANT SECRETARY BLAKE: I don’t know. I think they’re less worried about that now. We’ve had quite good conversations with them and briefed them on how our campaign is going and how that of the ISAF coalition is going. They’re reassured by the plans that we have now to continue to confront the Taliban militarily so they have an incentive to negotiate and to engage in this important reconciliation process that’s beginning.
QUESTION: You have new ambassadors to Uzbekistan, to Kyrgyzstan, to Turkmenistan, and we’re also expecting a new ambassador in Kazakhstan right?
ASSISTANT SECRETARY BLAKE: Yes.
QUESTION: Is there any specific message that they are taking to Central Asian leaders?
ASSISTANT SECRETARY BLAKE: Its’ difficult to generalize for all of them, but the overall message is the growing strategic importance of Central Asia to the United States and our desire to try to expand our engagement with these countries across the board, on all of the issues that we discuss in our annual bilateral consultation. We want not just better security coordination, cooperation, we want to work on, for example, new science and technology kinds of efforts. We want to improve our business and trade with all of these countries. We want to help to expand the energy independence of these countries. And we want to help on human rights.
All of these are very very important aspects of what we’re trying to accomplish and we have really outstanding ambassadors who have come out to accomplish these tasks.
QUESTION: Who know how to speak the native languages.
ASSISTANT SECRETARY BLAKE: They do.
QUESTION: As we’re hearing. Thank you so much.
ASSISTANT SECRETARY BLAKE: Thanks a lot.